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Bad for Your Land, Bad for the Critters
Wall Street Journal ^ | December 31, 2003 | JONATHAN H. ADLER

Posted on 12/31/2003 5:38:22 AM PST by OESY

Edited on 04/22/2004 11:50:44 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

This week, the Endangered Species Act turned 30. Signed into law by President Nixon on Dec. 28, 1973, the ESA quickly became one of the most powerful -- and controversial -- environmental laws. Feared by private landowners yet lauded by environmental activists, it is the source of substantial government power on private land, and can stop federal projects in their tracks. No wonder some call it the "pit bull" of federal environmental laws because it's short, compact and has "one hell of a set of teeth." Yet for all the ESA's force, it is surprisingly ineffective. Indeed, it may be the greatest failure of all federal environmental laws.


(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: animalrights; endangeredspecies; environment; esa; species
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This is the new eminent domain, government restricted use of private land. Imagine if your land contained any of the following endangered species -- not including pages upon pages of invertebrates and plants which are not listed with the mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians and fishes. This is environmental extremism reduced to a codified absurdity. Balance is needed.

Mammals Status Species Name E Bat, gray ( Myotis grisescens) E Bat, Hawaiian hoary ( Lasiurus cinereus semotus) E Bat, Indiana ( Myotis sodalis) E Bat, lesser long-nosed ( Leptonycteris curasoae yerbabuenae) E Bat, little Mariana fruit ( Pteropus tokudae) E Bat, Mariana fruit (=Mariana flying fox) ( Pteropus mariannus mariannus) E Bat, Mexican long-nosed ( Leptonycteris nivalis) E Bat, Ozark big-eared ( Corynorhinus (=Plecotus) townsendii ingens) E Bat, Virginia big-eared ( Corynorhinus (=Plecotus) townsendii virginianus) T(S/A) Bear, American black ( Ursus americanus) XN,T Bear, grizzly ( Ursus arctos horribilis) T Bear, Louisiana black ( Ursus americanus luteolus) E Caribou, woodland ( Rangifer tarandus caribou) E Deer, Columbian white-tailed ( Odocoileus virginianus leucurus) E Deer, key ( Odocoileus virginianus clavium) E,XN Ferret, black-footed ( Mustela nigripes) E Fox, San Joaquin kit ( Vulpes macrotis mutica) E Jaguar ( Panthera onca) E Jaguarundi, Gulf Coast ( Herpailurus (=Felis) yagouaroundi cacomitli) E Jaguarundi, Sinaloan ( Herpailurus (=Felis) yagouaroundi tolteca) E Kangaroo rat, Fresno ( Dipodomys nitratoides exilis) E Kangaroo rat, giant ( Dipodomys ingens) E Kangaroo rat, Morro Bay ( Dipodomys heermanni morroensis) E Kangaroo rat, San Bernardino Merriam's ( Dipodomys merriami parvus) E Kangaroo rat, Stephens' ( Dipodomys stephensi (incl. D. cascus)) E Kangaroo rat, Tipton ( Dipodomys nitratoides nitratoides) T Lynx, Canada ( Lynx canadensis) E Manatee, West Indian ( Trichechus manatus) E Mountain beaver, Point Arena ( Aplodontia rufa nigra) E Mouse, Alabama beach ( Peromyscus polionotus ammobates) E Mouse, Anastasia Island beach ( Peromyscus polionotus phasma) E Mouse, Choctawhatchee beach ( Peromyscus polionotus allophrys) E Mouse, Key Largo cotton ( Peromyscus gossypinus allapaticola) E Mouse, Pacific pocket ( Perognathus longimembris pacificus) E Mouse, Perdido Key beach ( Peromyscus polionotus trissyllepsis) T Mouse, Preble's meadow jumping ( Zapus hudsonius preblei) E Mouse, salt marsh harvest ( Reithrodontomys raviventris) T Mouse, southeastern beach ( Peromyscus polionotus niveiventris) E Mouse, St. Andrew beach ( Peromyscus polionotus peninsularis) E Ocelot ( Leopardus (=Felis) pardalis) XN,T Otter, southern sea ( Enhydra lutris nereis) E Panther, Florida ( Puma (=Felis) concolor coryi) T Prairie dog, Utah ( Cynomys parvidens) E Pronghorn, Sonoran ( Antilocapra americana sonoriensis) E Puma (=cougar), eastern ( Puma (=Felis) concolor couguar) T(S/A) Puma (=mountain lion) ( Puma (=Felis) concolor (all subsp. except coryi)) E Rabbit, Lower Keys marsh ( Sylvilagus palustris hefneri) E Rabbit, pygmy ( Brachylagus idahoensis) E Rabbit, riparian brush ( Sylvilagus bachmani riparius) E Rice rat ( Oryzomys palustris natator) E Seal, Caribbean monk ( Monachus tropicalis) T Seal, Guadalupe fur ( Arctocephalus townsendi) E Seal, Hawaiian monk ( Monachus schauinslandi) E,T Sea-lion, Steller ( Eumetopias jubatus) E Sheep, bighorn ( Ovis canadensis) E Sheep, bighorn ( Ovis canadensis californiana) E Shrew, Buena Vista Lake ornate ( Sorex ornatus relictus) E Squirrel, Carolina northern flying ( Glaucomys sabrinus coloratus) E,XN Squirrel, Delmarva Peninsula fox ( Sciurus niger cinereus) E Squirrel, Mount Graham red ( Tamiasciurus hudsonicus grahamensis) T Squirrel, northern Idaho ground ( Spermophilus brunneus brunneus) E Squirrel, Virginia northern flying ( Glaucomys sabrinus fuscus) E Vole, Amargosa ( Microtus californicus scirpensis) E Vole, Florida salt marsh ( Microtus pennsylvanicus dukecampbelli) E Vole, Hualapai Mexican ( Microtus mexicanus hualpaiensis) E Whale, blue ( Balaenoptera musculus) E Whale, bowhead ( Balaena mysticetus) E Whale, finback ( Balaenoptera physalus) E Whale, humpback ( Megaptera novaeangliae) E Whale, right ( Balaena glacialis (incl. australis)) E Whale, Sei ( Balaenoptera borealis) E Whale, sperm ( Physeter catodon (=macrocephalus)) E,XN,T Wolf, gray ( Canis lupus) E,XN Wolf, red ( Canis rufus) E Woodrat, Key Largo ( Neotoma floridana smalli) E Woodrat, riparian (=San Joaquin Valley) ( Neotoma fuscipes riparia)

Birds E Akepa, Hawaii (honeycreeper) ( Loxops coccineus coccineus) E Akepa, Maui (honeycreeper) ( Loxops coccineus ochraceus) E Akialoa, Kauai (honeycreeper) ( Hemignathus procerus) E Akiapola`au (honeycreeper) ( Hemignathus munroi) E Albatross, short-tailed ( Phoebastria (=Diomedea) albatrus) E Blackbird, yellow-shouldered ( Agelaius xanthomus) E Bobwhite, masked (quail) ( Colinus virginianus ridgwayi) E Broadbill, Guam ( Myiagra freycineti) E Cahow ( Pterodroma cahow) T Caracara, Audubon's crested ( Polyborus plancus audubonii) E,XN Condor, California ( Gymnogyps californianus) E Coot, Hawaiian ( Fulica americana alai) E Crane, Mississippi sandhill ( Grus canadensis pulla) E,XN Crane, whooping ( Grus americana) E Creeper, Hawaii ( Oreomystis mana) E Creeper, Molokai ( Paroreomyza flammea) E Creeper, Oahu ( Paroreomyza maculata) E Crow, Hawaiian (='alala) ( Corvus hawaiiensis) E Crow, Mariana (=aga) ( Corvus kubaryi) E Crow, white-necked ( Corvus leucognaphalus) E Curlew, Eskimo ( Numenius borealis) E Duck, Hawaiian (=koloa) ( Anas wyvilliana) E Duck, Laysan ( Anas laysanensis) T Eagle, bald ( Haliaeetus leucocephalus) T Eider, spectacled ( Somateria fischeri) T Eider, Steller's ( Polysticta stelleri) E Elepaio, Oahu ( Chasiempis sandwichensis ibidis) E Falcon, northern aplomado ( Falco femoralis septentrionalis) E Finch, Laysan (honeycreeper) ( Telespyza cantans) E Finch, Nihoa (honeycreeper) ( Telespyza ultima) E Flycatcher, southwestern willow ( Empidonax traillii extimus) T Gnatcatcher, coastal California ( Polioptila californica californica) E Goose, Hawaiian ( Branta (=Nesochen) sandvicensis) E Hawk, Hawaiian (='lo) ( Buteo solitarius) E Hawk, Puerto Rican broad-winged ( Buteo platypterus brunnescens) E Hawk, Puerto Rican sharp-shinned ( Accipiter striatus venator) E Honeycreeper, crested ( Palmeria dolei) T Jay, Florida scrub ( Aphelocoma coerulescens) E Kingfisher, Guam Micronesian ( Halcyon cinnamomina cinnamomina) E Kite, Everglade snail ( Rostrhamus sociabilis plumbeus) E Mallard, Mariana ( Anas oustaleti) E Megapode, Micronesian ( Megapodius laperouse) E Millerbird, Nihoa (old world warbler) ( Acrocephalus familiaris kingi) T Monarch, Tinian (old world flycatcher) ( Monarcha takatsukasae) E Moorhen, Hawaiian common ( Gallinula chloropus sandvicensis) E Moorhen, Mariana common ( Gallinula chloropus guami) T Murrelet, marbled ( Brachyramphus marmoratus marmoratus) E Nightjar, Puerto Rican ( Caprimulgus noctitherus) E Nukupu`u (honeycreeper) ( Hemignathus lucidus) E `O`o, Kauai (honeyeater) ( Moho braccatus) E `O`u (honeycreeper) ( Psittirostra psittacea) T Owl, Mexican spotted ( Strix occidentalis lucida) T Owl, northern spotted ( Strix occidentalis caurina) E Palila (honeycreeper) ( Loxioides bailleui) E Parrot, Puerto Rican ( Amazona vittata) E Parrotbill, Maui (honeycreeper) ( Pseudonestor xanthophrys) E Pelican, brown ( Pelecanus occidentalis) E Petrel, Hawaiian dark-rumped ( Pterodroma phaeopygia sandwichensis) E Pigeon, Puerto Rican plain ( Columba inornata wetmorei) E,T Plover, piping ( Charadrius melodus) T Plover, western snowy ( Charadrius alexandrinus nivosus) E Po`ouli (honeycreeper) ( Melamprosops phaeosoma) E Prairie-chicken, Attwater's greater ( Tympanuchus cupido attwateri) E Pygmy-owl, cactus ferruginous ( Glaucidium brasilianum cactorum) E Rail, California clapper ( Rallus longirostris obsoletus) E,XN Rail, Guam ( Rallus owstoni) E Rail, light-footed clapper ( Rallus longirostris levipes) E Rail, Yuma clapper ( Rallus longirostris yumanensis) T Shearwater, Newell's Townsend's ( Puffinus auricularis newelli) E Shrike, San Clemente loggerhead ( Lanius ludovicianus mearnsi) E Sparrow, Cape Sable seaside ( Ammodramus maritimus mirabilis) E Sparrow, Florida grasshopper ( Ammodramus savannarum floridanus) T Sparrow, San Clemente sage ( Amphispiza belli clementeae) E Stilt, Hawaiian ( Himantopus mexicanus knudseni) E Stork, wood ( Mycteria americana) E Swiftlet, Mariana gray ( Aerodramus vanikorensis bartschi) E Tern, California least ( Sterna antillarum browni) E Tern, least ( Sterna antillarum) E,T Tern, roseate ( Sterna dougallii dougallii) E Thrush, large Kauai (=kamao) ( Myadestes myadestinus) E Thrush, Molokai ( Myadestes lanaiensis rutha) E Thrush, small Kauai (=puaiohi) ( Myadestes palmeri) T Towhee, Inyo California ( Pipilo crissalis eremophilus) E Vireo, black-capped ( Vireo atricapillus) E Vireo, least Bell's ( Vireo bellii pusillus) E Warbler (=wood), Bachman's ( Vermivora bachmanii) E Warbler (=wood), golden-cheeked ( Dendroica chrysoparia) E Warbler (=wood), Kirtland's ( Dendroica kirtlandii) E Warbler, nightingale reed (old world warbler) ( Acrocephalus luscinia) E White-eye, bridled ( Zosterops conspicillatus conspicillatus) E Woodpecker, ivory-billed ( Campephilus principalis) E Woodpecker, red-cockaded ( Picoides borealis)

Reptiles T(S/A) Alligator, American ( Alligator mississippiensis) E Anole, Culebra Island giant ( Anolis roosevelti) T Boa, Mona ( Epicrates monensis monensis) E Boa, Puerto Rican ( Epicrates inornatus) E Boa, Virgin Islands tree ( Epicrates monensis granti) E Crocodile, American ( Crocodylus acutus) E Gecko, Monito ( Sphaerodactylus micropithecus) T Iguana, Mona ground ( Cyclura stejnegeri) E Lizard, blunt-nosed leopard ( Gambelia silus) T Lizard, Coachella Valley fringe-toed ( Uma inornata) T Lizard, Island night ( Xantusia riversiana) E Lizard, St. Croix ground ( Ameiva polops) T Rattlesnake, New Mexican ridge-nosed ( Crotalus willardi obscurus) E,T Sea turtle, green ( Chelonia mydas) E Sea turtle, hawksbill ( Eretmochelys imbricata) E Sea turtle, Kemp's ridley ( Lepidochelys kempii) E Sea turtle, leatherback ( Dermochelys coriacea) T Sea turtle, loggerhead ( Caretta caretta) T Sea turtle, olive ridley ( Lepidochelys olivacea) T Skink, bluetail mole ( Eumeces egregius lividus) T Skink, sand ( Neoseps reynoldsi) T Snake, Atlantic salt marsh ( Nerodia clarkii taeniata) T Snake, Concho water ( Nerodia paucimaculata) T Snake, copperbelly water ( Nerodia erythrogaster neglecta) T Snake, eastern indigo ( Drymarchon corais couperi) T Snake, giant garter ( Thamnophis gigas) T Snake, Lake Erie water ( Nerodia sipedon insularum) E Snake, San Francisco garter ( Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia) T(S/A),T Tortoise, desert ( Gopherus agassizii) T Tortoise, gopher ( Gopherus polyphemus) E Turtle, Alabama red-belly ( Pseudemys alabamensis) T(S/A),T Turtle, bog (=Muhlenberg) ( Clemmys muhlenbergii) T Turtle, flattened musk ( Sternotherus depressus) E Turtle, Plymouth redbelly ( Pseudemys rubriventris bangsi) T Turtle, ringed map ( Graptemys oculifera) T Turtle, yellow-blotched map ( Graptemys flavimaculata) T Whipsnake (=striped racer), Alameda ( Masticophis lateralis euryxanthus)

Amphibians T Coqui, golden ( Eleutherodactylus jasperi) T Frog, California red-legged ( Rana aurora draytonii) T Frog, Chiricahua leopard ( Rana chiricahuensis) E Frog, Mississippi gopher ( Rana capito sevosa) E Frog, mountain yellow-legged ( Rana muscosa) T Guajon ( Eleutherodactylus cooki) E Salamander, Barton Springs ( Eurycea sosorum) E Salamander, California tiger ( Ambystoma californiense) T Salamander, Cheat Mountain ( Plethodon nettingi) E Salamander, desert slender ( Batrachoseps aridus) T Salamander, flatwoods ( Ambystoma cingulatum) T Salamander, Red Hills ( Phaeognathus hubrichti) T Salamander, San Marcos ( Eurycea nana) E Salamander, Santa Cruz long-toed ( Ambystoma macrodactylum croceum) E Salamander, Shenandoah ( Plethodon shenandoah) E Salamander, Sonora tiger ( Ambystoma tigrinum stebbinsi) E Salamander, Texas blind ( Typhlomolge rathbuni) E Toad, arroyo (=arroyo southwestern) ( Bufo californicus (=microscaphus)) E Toad, Houston ( Bufo houstonensis) T Toad, Puerto Rican crested ( Peltophryne lemur) E Toad, Wyoming ( Bufo baxteri (=hemiophrys))

Fishes T Catfish, Yaqui ( Ictalurus pricei) E Cavefish, Alabama ( Speoplatyrhinus poulsoni) T Cavefish, Ozark ( Amblyopsis rosae) E Chub, bonytail ( Gila elegans) E Chub, Borax Lake ( Gila boraxobius) T Chub, Chihuahua ( Gila nigrescens) E Chub, humpback ( Gila cypha) T Chub, Hutton tui ( Gila bicolor ssp.) E Chub, Mohave tui ( Gila bicolor mohavensis) E Chub, Oregon ( Oregonichthys crameri) E Chub, Owens tui ( Gila bicolor snyderi) E Chub, Pahranagat roundtail ( Gila robusta jordani) T Chub, slender ( Erimystax cahni) T Chub, Sonora ( Gila ditaenia) XN,T Chub, spotfin ( Cyprinella monacha) E Chub, Virgin River ( Gila seminuda (=robusta)) E Chub, Yaqui ( Gila purpurea) E Cui-ui ( Chasmistes cujus) E Dace, Ash Meadows speckled ( Rhinichthys osculus nevadensis) T Dace, blackside ( Phoxinus cumberlandensis) E Dace, Clover Valley speckled ( Rhinichthys osculus oligoporus) T Dace, desert ( Eremichthys acros) T Dace, Foskett speckled ( Rhinichthys osculus ssp.) E Dace, Independence Valley speckled ( Rhinichthys osculus lethoporus) E Dace, Kendall Warm Springs ( Rhinichthys osculus thermalis) E Dace, Moapa ( Moapa coriacea) E Darter, amber ( Percina antesella) T Darter, bayou ( Etheostoma rubrum) E Darter, bluemask (=jewel) ( Etheostoma /) E Darter, boulder ( Etheostoma wapiti) T Darter, Cherokee ( Etheostoma scotti) E,XN Darter, duskytail ( Etheostoma percnurum) E Darter, Etowah ( Etheostoma etowahae) E Darter, fountain ( Etheostoma fonticola) T Darter, goldline ( Percina aurolineata) T Darter, leopard ( Percina pantherina) E Darter, Maryland ( Etheostoma sellare) T Darter, Niangua ( Etheostoma nianguae) E Darter, Okaloosa ( Etheostoma okaloosae) E Darter, relict ( Etheostoma chienense) T Darter, slackwater ( Etheostoma boschungi) T Darter, snail ( Percina tanasi) E Darter, vermilion ( Etheostoma chermocki) E Darter, watercress ( Etheostoma nuchale) E Gambusia, Big Bend ( Gambusia gaigei) E Gambusia, Clear Creek ( Gambusia heterochir) E Gambusia, Pecos ( Gambusia nobilis) E Gambusia, San Marcos ( Gambusia georgei) E Goby, tidewater ( Eucyclogobius newberryi) E Logperch, Conasauga ( Percina jenkinsi) E Logperch, Roanoke ( Percina rex) T Madtom, Neosho ( Noturus placidus) E Madtom, pygmy ( Noturus stanauli) E Madtom, Scioto ( Noturus trautmani) E,XN Madtom, smoky ( Noturus baileyi) XN,T Madtom, yellowfin ( Noturus flavipinnis) T Minnow, Devils River ( Dionda diaboli) T Minnow, loach ( Tiaroga cobitis) E Minnow, Rio Grande silvery ( Hybognathus amarus) E,XN Pikeminnow (=squawfish), Colorado ( Ptychocheilus lucius) E Poolfish, Pahrump ( Empetrichthys latos) E Pupfish, Ash Meadows Amargosa ( Cyprinodon nevadensis mionectes) E Pupfish, Comanche Springs ( Cyprinodon elegans) E Pupfish, desert ( Cyprinodon macularius) E Pupfish, Devils Hole ( Cyprinodon diabolis) E Pupfish, Leon Springs ( Cyprinodon bovinus) E Pupfish, Owens ( Cyprinodon radiosus) E Pupfish, Warm Springs ( Cyprinodon nevadensis pectoralis) E Salmon, Atlantic ( Salmo salar) E,T Salmon, chinook ( Oncorhynchus (=Salmo) tshawytscha) T Salmon, chum ( Oncorhynchus (=Salmo) keta) T Salmon, coho ( Oncorhynchus (=Salmo) kisutch) E,T Salmon, sockeye ( Oncorhynchus (=Salmo) nerka) T Sculpin, pygmy ( Cottus paulus (=pygmaeus)) T Shiner, Arkansas River ( Notropis girardi) T Shiner, beautiful ( Cyprinella formosa) T Shiner, blue ( Cyprinella caerulea) E Shiner, Cahaba ( Notropis cahabae) E Shiner, Cape Fear ( Notropis mekistocholas) E Shiner, palezone ( Notropis albizonatus) T Shiner, Pecos bluntnose ( Notropis simus pecosensis) E Shiner, Topeka ( Notropis topeka (=tristis)) T Silverside, Waccamaw ( Menidia extensa) T Smelt, delta ( Hypomesus transpacificus) T Spikedace ( Meda fulgida) T Spinedace, Big Spring ( Lepidomeda mollispinis pratensis) T Spinedace, Little Colorado ( Lepidomeda vittata) E Spinedace, White River ( Lepidomeda albivallis) T Splittail, Sacramento ( Pogonichthys macrolepidotus) E Springfish, Hiko White River ( Crenichthys baileyi grandis) T Springfish, Railroad Valley ( Crenichthys nevadae) E Springfish, White River ( Crenichthys baileyi baileyi) E,T Steelhead ( Oncorhynchus (=Salmo) mykiss) E Stickleback, unarmored threespine ( Gasterosteus aculeatus williamsoni) E Sturgeon, Alabama ( Scaphirhynchus suttkusi) T Sturgeon, gulf ( Acipenser oxyrinchus desotoi) E Sturgeon, pallid ( Scaphirhynchus albus) E Sturgeon, shortnose ( Acipenser brevirostrum) E Sturgeon, white ( Acipenser transmontanus) E Sucker, June ( Chasmistes liorus) E Sucker, Lost River ( Deltistes luxatus) E Sucker, Modoc ( Catostomus microps) E Sucker, razorback ( Xyrauchen texanus) T Sucker, Santa Ana ( Catostomus santaanae) E Sucker, shortnose ( Chasmistes brevirostris) T Sucker, Warner ( Catostomus warnerensis) E Topminnow, Gila (incl. Yaqui) ( Poeciliopsis occidentalis) T Trout, Apache ( Oncorhynchus apache) T Trout, bull ( Salvelinus confluentus) E Trout, Gila ( Oncorhynchus gilae) T Trout, greenback cutthroat ( Oncorhynchus clarki stomias) T Trout, Lahontan cutthroat ( Oncorhynchus clarki henshawi) T Trout, Little Kern golden ( Oncorhynchus aguabonita whitei) T Trout, Paiute cutthroat ( Oncorhynchus clarki seleniris) E,XN Woundfin ( Plagopterus argentissimus)

E Democrats

PEOPLE, American, red-blooded

NOTE: Any similarities of snakes, bats, toads and suckers to Democrats or scum-sucking enviro-extremists living or dead is purely coincidental.

1 posted on 12/31/2003 5:38:23 AM PST by OESY
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To: AAABEST; TonyWojo; sauropod; farmfriend; Grampa Dave
I saw this post and thought of you folks.

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

2 posted on 12/31/2003 5:47:49 AM PST by Joe Brower ("If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face, forever." - G. Orwell)
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To: OESY
bump
3 posted on 12/31/2003 5:52:04 AM PST by jonno
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To: OESY
A story I probable read here in FR a few years back.

A highway construction project was going through the hills when an endangered plant species was found growing right in the middle of the planned freeway. According to ecologists, this species needed just the right combination of light and shade, and so was only found in isolated pockets in the hills where such conditions existed. Ergo, the highway project must be rerouted at significant cost and delay.

The lead engineer looked at the freeway plan, looked at where these plants were supposed to be on the map, and borrowed a backhoe. After doing some off-the-books engineering work, he returned to the construction office and said that the location of the plants had been mismarked on the map, and their actual location was far enough away from the planned route to allow construction to continue.

The irony is that these plants, that needed "just the right" amount of sun and shade, thrived in their new home.

4 posted on 12/31/2003 5:54:53 AM PST by Fudd
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To: Fudd
Does anyone know of any websites out there that collect stories like this? I.e. that tell the true story about what the EnviroNazis are doing to us?
5 posted on 12/31/2003 6:12:49 AM PST by CardCarryingMember.VastRightWC
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To: OESY
The article does make some sense. If a property owner owns property which is inhabited by an endangered species, and consequently looses the ability to economically exploit that land, the government should re-imburse said owner.

It might also make sense to offer some kind of tax-incentive to owners of large plots of undeveloped land if they maintain populations of endangered species.

It really IS a problem that species become extinct due to population growth. Who wants to live in a Country which is paved over with macadam and concrete in which the only "wildlife" is pigeons, rats, mice, roaches and wildcats???? Do we really WANT America to resemble a giant Manhattan???

I like the woods and forests. I enjoy hiking, target shooting, hunting and fishing and hope my descedents can also. But in order to leave them with such a legacy, we must preserve oepn land, protect and restire endangered species, and control conscienousless land developers whose sole interest in life is convert every square mile of open land into a delveopment, industrial park, highway or other structure, all at a healthy profit to themselves of course.

Its only thanks to a great American, progressive conservative and Republican, Teddy Roosevelt, that we even have a National Park System and still see, and even hunt bufffalo, elk, bear and deer.
6 posted on 12/31/2003 6:36:28 AM PST by ZULU
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To: OESY
I am still waiting for the ESA to reverse its decision to protect the "endangered" Canadian Crapper, er, Goose.

When are they considered unendangered? When they or their feces displace all the human beings on the continent?

7 posted on 12/31/2003 6:37:56 AM PST by SpinyNorman
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To: SpinyNorman
They forgot the most endangered species of all: "threatening" dog breeds (i.e. Rottweiler, Pit Bull, Chow, etc). Only thing is, it's the Lefties who want them all destroyed.
8 posted on 12/31/2003 6:54:32 AM PST by pawdoggie
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To: ZULU
According to the US Census Bureau, less than 5% of the land is classified as developed.

There ain't no paving over America and looking like Manhattan. It's all eco-fascist propaganda.
9 posted on 12/31/2003 7:42:18 AM PST by sergeantdave (Gen. Custer wore an Arrowsmith shirt to his last property owner convention.)
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To: Joe Brower
Thanks.

This bs of saving imaginary critters is one of the main tools of the Watermelon Jihadists who work 24/7/365 to destroy property rights of farmers, ranchers, those who dare to own trees and the rest of us.

Probably every county with farms, ranches, private logging and just nice homes in the country has the local Enviral Ecoterrorists working 24/7 to destroy the property rights of the land owners.

Joe thanks for all of your pings this past year.
10 posted on 12/31/2003 7:52:27 AM PST by Grampa Dave (Kaddaffi: "I will do whatever the Americans want. I saw what happened in Iraq. I was scared!)
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To: CardCarryingMember.VastRightWC
A new freeway was scheduled to be built thru some of our property. A pair of nesting Southern Bald Eagle with babies in the nest was discovered in a large tree in the right of way. Plans were held up while deciding what to do. We were sick because we wanted the freeway. It made our inexcessable property more valuable. The enviromentalist & bird watchers started coming in droves to see the endangered birds. The birds took note of the human traffic & moved. he he Freeway was built as originaly planned.
11 posted on 12/31/2003 7:59:44 AM PST by Ditter
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To: Joe Brower
Thanks Joe.
12 posted on 12/31/2003 8:33:28 AM PST by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: OESY; AAABEST; Ace2U; Alamo-Girl; Alas; alfons; amom; AndreaZingg; Anonymous2; ApesForEvolution; ...
Rights, farms, environment ping.

Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this list.
I don't get offended if you want to be removed.

13 posted on 12/31/2003 8:34:01 AM PST by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: farmfriend
BTT!!!!!!
14 posted on 12/31/2003 8:47:25 AM PST by E.G.C.
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To: sergeantdave
"According to the US Census Bureau, less than 5% of the land is classified as developed."

I'm sure you quoted them correctly, but I'm not sure those figures are accurate. The Census Bureau isn't one of my favorite agencies anyway.

If you look at a map of the northeastern U.S., you will the beginning of a giant megalopolis spreading from Boston and its suburbs, down through New York City and its suburbs, running through Central New Jersey to Trenton - Camden - Philadelphia and continuing through Baltimore - Washington, D.C. through Richmond. It begins again around the Charlotteville area and runs down along th Rt 95 corridor to Atlanta. Ad to that Chicago, San Francisco, New Orleans, etc. and you wind up with a developed area which is quite substantial. Its hard for me to conceive of these regions being only 5% of the nation's surface area.

To be sure, even within those areas are large tracts of forested, undeveloped land - the New Jersey Pine Barrens comes to mind - and they may be deducting each one of these from the total to arrive at the 5% figure you quoted. HOWEVER, were to travel the mainroads running through ANY of those areas, or try hunting in them, or hike in them, you would find them far from "undeveloped". They are in actuality quite congested.

Further, the census may consider the large amount of farmland located in states like Nebraska, Kansas, Iowa, etc. as being "undeveloped". This is hardly the case. They are intensively farmed.

You are from Michigan. Michigan is probably one of the least urbanized states in the Union, but I can't say for sure, having never been there. I HAVE however, been up and down the east coast of the U.S. from Maine to Florida. I KNOW the population is growing, woodlands are rapidly disappearing, roadways and highways have become highly congested, and it is no longer a desirable place to live from the perspective of over-population.

Overpopulation can be a matter of perspective. However, the size of our land IS limited, and so are our resources. I strongly believe we should encourage a smaller population growth by restricting immigration and encouraging birth control.

The alterantive will eventually be a country with a lot of roads, highways and business parks and very little in the area of wildlife and forests. Further, our ability to provide food, water, and utilities to such a population will be extremely limited. I also believe urbanization is counterproductive to the interests of conservatives in general. Most of the areas which are anti-gun, liberal, and went for Gore in 2000 are densely populated urban areas.

People in urban areas tend to look to government to solve their problems, are anti-gun, are anti-hunting, and vote Democratic.


15 posted on 12/31/2003 9:01:39 AM PST by ZULU
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To: ZULU
Let's see if this helps out :

According to US census statistics, about 208 million people are packed into cities on three percent of the U.S. land area. This mish-mash of homes, businesses and malls all packed together on a tiny area gives residents the illusion of overcrowding or sprawl.

This is especially true of the east coast corridor where you live.

This illusion of sprawl is fueled by the whining and bleating of the sensationalist socialist press. Mention the word “sprawl” and people get hexed by the smart growth witches.

In fact, America has more space than it knows what to do with. The U.S. Bureau of Census classifies less than 5 percent of the U.S. land as developed and less than 2.5 percent as urban.

This illusion of sprawl is meant to achieve one thing - control.

And these busy-body central planners can't get control without a Master Plan. Here it is. It’s called the American Planning Association’s “Growing Smart Legislative Handbook.”

This is their bible

With great reverence, we consulted the seers at the American Policy Center, a think tank headquartered in Warrenton, Va., and asked what happens if the “bible” becomes law.

“Sustainable development,” as envisioned by its proponents, “calls for changing the concept of private property, protected by the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution,” said the center.

The center added: “Under such a system, the federal government, backed by an army of private, non-governmental organizations (NGOs) like the Sierra Club will influence, if not dictate, property and other policies to the states and to local communities.”

The “bible” provides for “administrative warrants” - without probable cause - upon the complaint of a neighbor, or any third party, for bureaucrats to enter private property to investigate for noncompliance, says Wendell Cox of the Wendell Cox Consultancy in St. Louis. Violators are subject to criminal, not civil, penalties.

“The APA forfeiture proposal not only would help bureaucrats take people’s homes away, but also would undermine the wealth-creating engine that has made America the most prosperous nation in the world,” said Cox. “The Growing Smart Guidebook is a guide for increased poverty, not prosperity.”

Bureaucrats, land thieves and politicians think smart growth with its “administrative warrants” is a Christmas present to themselves. Of course we won’t tell these people that “general warrants” started the 1776 revolution.

Even the soviet aparatchniks who wrote the “bible” admitted “its proposals may present some problems, one of which is the potential to violate the Constitution.”

So you may be living like gerbils stacked in boxes on top of each other, but the amount of space available for expansion is massive.

The reason "sprawl" exists in the government lexicon and on the pages of the propaganda press is an attempt by government to control private property. And any good econ 101 book will tell you that government control of private property is also called fascism.

16 posted on 12/31/2003 10:27:06 AM PST by sergeantdave (Gen. Custer wore an Arrowsmith shirt to his last property owner convention.)
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To: ZULU
If you want to stop population growth in this country, stop illegal immigration.

If you want to keep people out of the countryside, help turn the cities into civilized places again. Get rid of zoning restrictions that prevent construction of apartments near the city.

If you do these things, land in the country will become cheap and you can buy the land yourself, populate it with your buffalo and shoot them if you want to. Most of us aren't like you. You and your friends can have the wilderness.

But if you let the government own the wilderness I guarantee you that no one except government agents will be allowed there.
17 posted on 12/31/2003 10:55:27 AM PST by Dan Evans
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To: sergeantdave
I don't support governmnet control, the suspension of the Fifth Amendment or anything like that.

I'm merely stating the obvious. If our population continues to grow at the present rate, open land in our country will eventually become eaten up by pizzarias, Chinese Food joints, highways, malls, developments, etc.

What you state about the east coast being exceptionally crowded is correct. But the East Coast represents far more than 5% of the Country's surface. And that figure of a population of 208 million provided by one of those governmnet agencies you so rightly mistrust, is not accurate. Tom Ridge recently stated there are between 12 and 8 million illegal aliens in the U.S. now. That leaves a factor of 4 million people, or an error margin of 50 % to 33%. And they really aren't that sure about the top figure. Every day an army of hundreds if not thousands of illegals cross the border - mainly from the Mexican border. This is intolerable. But I digress.

I recall travelling along the eastern coast and passing great areas of undeveloped forest and open woodland - that was about 30 years ago. When I travel the same route today, I see large portions - I mean REALLY big areas clear-cut and converted to cheap malls, sprawling highways, ugly developments, etc, etc. And today, thanks to new techniques, the construction season goes on ALL YEAR. Even in the dead of winter, crews are cleaaring out forest, pouring foundations, laying roadways.

I don't know how old you are. But if you are in your early twenties, my guess is you or your children will experience the same kind of devastation out there in Michigan.

I don't know what the solution to all this is. I don't want to infringe on Constitutional rights, or sound like the Sierra Club wackos, but this disturbs me. I don't like cities - they are necessary evils. I don't want to live near them, be engulfed by them, or be overrun by the kind of socialists who inhabit them.

What is YOUR suggestion to this problem??
18 posted on 12/31/2003 12:24:58 PM PST by ZULU
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To: Dan Evans
>If you want to stop population growth in this country, stop illegal immigration.<

I'd like to. Any suggestions? I plan to stay out of ALL stores on January 12th to send a message to Rove, Ridge and Bush that I don't want amnesty for illegal invaders.

>If you want to keep people out of the countryside, help turn the cities into civilized places again.<

Civilized places? Like when the British and Dutch gangs controlled New York? Or when the Irish gangs did? Or when the Italian Mafia did? Or the Black and Hispanic gangs?? Or the Russian Mafia today?? Go back to Medieval times. Even then cities were not solubrious places.

Cities aren't civilized. They never were. Cities are like sewers, they draw the worst elements of society together, where, like animals in a herd, their anonymity protects their deviant behavior. Noisy, smelly, crowded, filthy - they provide continual offense to alll senses. Give me a small town or the wilderness any day. I'll take my chances with a rifle in the woods anytime.

>Get rid of zoning restrictions that prevent construction of apartments near the city.<

??????????

>If you do these things, land in the country will become cheap and you can buy the land yourself, populate it with your buffalo and shoot them if you want to.<

Hunting is great sport - really. You should try it yourself.

>Most of us aren't like you. <

Ohhh? and how is that??

>You and your friends can have the wilderness. <

What "friends" are you talking about??

"But if you let the government own the wilderness I guarantee you that no one except government agents will be allowed there."

Are you in the construction trades?? What solution do you propose??

Do you want to live in a country with no open spaces to roam in?? Do you not enjoy hunting, fishing, hiking, etc?? Are you so totally a city boy????


19 posted on 12/31/2003 12:44:09 PM PST by ZULU
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To: ZULU
If all immigration to the U.S. were to end, the population would stop growing right now, that is a fact. The world population will grow to about nine billion and then stabilize in a few decades. Don't let bureaucrats scare you and stampede you over the cliff.

If you want land where you can hunt, get some friends together and buy it. Don't expect taxpayers to subsidize your hobby.

Your problem is that you don't like to look at people and their artifacts. I can understand why you feel this way but your fears of the world turning into a concrete jungle are unjustified. When "The Population Bomb" was first published I too was a true believer and I went around warning people of the impending disaster. I have since come to my senses.
20 posted on 12/31/2003 12:51:14 PM PST by Dan Evans
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