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An Angry Look At Modern (Public) Schooling
Underground History of American Education ^ | John Taylor Gatto

Posted on 04/08/2005 10:12:00 PM PDT by Zack Nguyen

I Quit, I Think

In the first year of the last decade of the twentieth century during my thirtieth year as a school teacher in Community School District 3, Manhattan, after teaching in all five secondary schools in the district, crossing swords with one professional administration after another as they strove to rid themselves of me, after having my license suspended twice for insubordination and terminated covertly once while I was on medical leave of absence, after the City University of New York borrowed me for a five-year stint as a lecturer in the Education Department (and the faculty rating handbook published by the Student Council gave me the highest ratings in the department my last three years), after planning and bringing about the most successful permanent school fund-raiser in New York City history, after placing a single eighth-grade class into 30,000 hours of volunteer community service, after organizing and financing a student-run food cooperative, after securing over a thousand apprenticeships, directing the collection of tens of thousands of books for the construction of private student libraries, after producing four talking job dictionaries for the blind, writing two original student musicals, and launching an armada of other initiatives to reintegrate students within a larger human reality, I quit.

I was New York State Teacher of the Year when it happened. An accumulation of disgust and frustration which grew too heavy to be borne finally did me in. To test my resolve I sent a short essay to The Wall Street Journal titled "I Quit, I Think." In it I explained my reasons for deciding to wrap it up, even though I had no savings and not the slightest idea what else I might do in my mid-fifties to pay the rent. In its entirety it read like this:

"Government schooling is the most radical adventure in history. It kills the family by monopolizing the best times of childhood and by teaching disrespect for home and parents. The whole blueprint of school procedure is Egyptian, not Greek or Roman. It grows from the theological idea that human value is a scarce thing, represented symbolically by the narrow peak of a pyramid.

That idea passed into American history through the Puritans. It found its "scientific" presentation in the bell curve, along which talent supposedly apportions itself by some Iron Law of Biology. It’s a religious notion, School is its church. I offer rituals to keep heresy at bay. I provide documentation to justify the heavenly pyramid.

Socrates foresaw if teaching became a formal profession, something like this would happen. Professional interest is served by making what is easy to do seem hard; by subordinating the laity to the priesthood. School is too vital a jobs-project, contract giver and protector of the social order to allow itself to be "re-formed." It has political allies to guard its marches, that’s why reforms come and go without changing much. Even reformers can’t imagine school much different.

David learns to read at age four; Rachel, at age nine: In normal development, when both are 13, you can’t tell which one learned first—the five-year spread means nothing at all. But in school I label Rachel "learning disabled" and slow David down a bit, too. For a paycheck, I adjust David to depend on me to tell him when to go and stop. He won’t outgrow that dependency. I identify Rachel as discount merchandise, "special education" fodder. She’ll be locked in her place forever.

In 30 years of teaching kids rich and poor I almost never met a learning disabled child; hardly ever met a gifted and talented one either. Like all school categories, these are sacred myths, created by human imagination. They derive from questionable values we never examine because they preserve the temple of schooling.

That’s the secret behind short-answer tests, bells, uniform time blocks, age grading, standardization, and all the rest of the school religion punishing our nation. There isn’t a right way to become educated; there are as many ways as fingerprints. We don’t need state-certified teachers to make education happen—that probably guarantees it won’t.

How much more evidence is necessary? Good schools don’t need more money or a longer year; they need real free-market choices, variety that speaks to every need and runs risks. We don’t need a national curriculum or national testing either. Both initiatives arise from ignorance of how people learn or deliberate indifference to it. I can’t teach this way any longer. If you hear of a job where I don’t have to hurt kids to make a living, let me know. Come fall I’ll be looking for work."

The little essay went off in March and I forgot it. Somewhere along the way I must have gotten a note saying it would be published at the editor’s discretion, but if so, it was quickly forgotten in the press of turbulent feelings that accompanied my own internal struggle. Finally, on July 5, 1991, I swallowed hard and quit. Twenty days later the Journal published the piece. A week later I was studying invitations to speak at NASA Space Center, the Western White House, the Nashville Center for the Arts, Columbia Graduate Business School, the Colorado Librarian’s Convention, Apple Computer, and the financial control board of United Technologies Corporation. Nine years later, still enveloped in the orbit of compulsion schooling, I had spoken 750 times in fifty states and seven foreign countries. I had no agent and never advertised, but a lot of people made an effort to find me. It was as if parents were starving for someone to tell them the truth.

My hunch is it wasn’t so much what I was saying that kept the lecture round unfolding, but that a teacher was speaking out at all and the curious fact that I represented nobody except myself. In the great school debate, this is unheard of. Every single voice allowed regular access to the national podium is the mouthpiece of some association, corporation, university, agency, or institutionalized cause. The poles of debate blocked out by these ritualized, figurehead voices are extremely narrow. Each has a stake in continuing forced schooling much as it is.

As I traveled, I discovered a universal hunger, often unvoiced, to be free of managed debate. A desire to be given untainted information. Nobody seemed to have maps of where this thing had come from or why it acted as it did, but the ability to smell a rat was alive and well all over America.

Exactly what John Dewey heralded at the onset of the twentieth century has indeed happened. Our once highly individualized nation has evolved into a centrally managed village, an agora made up of huge special interests which regard individual voices as irrelevant. The masquerade is managed by having collective agencies speak through particular human beings. Dewey said this would mark a great advance in human affairs, but the net effect is to reduce men and women to the status of functions in whatever subsystem they are placed. Public opinion is turned on and off in laboratory fashion. All this in the name of social efficiency, one of the two main goals of forced schooling.

Dewey called this transformation "the new individualism." When I stepped into the job of schoolteacher in 1961, the new individualism was sitting in the driver’s seat all over urban America, a far cry from my own school days on the Monongahela when the Lone Ranger, not Sesame Street, was our nation’s teacher, and school things weren’t nearly so oppressive. But gradually they became something else in the euphoric times following WWII. Easy money and easy travel provided welcome relief from wartime austerity, the advent of television, the new nonstop theater, offered easy laughs, effortless entertainment. Thus preoccupied, Americans failed to notice the deliberate conversion of formal education that was taking place, a transformation that would turn school into an instrument of the leviathan state. Who made that happen and why is part of the story I have to tell.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: education; johntaylorgatto; publiceducation
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This is an excerpt from John Taylor Gatto's facinating book The Underground History of American Education. I am in the midst of reading it now. The entire book is available online.
1 posted on 04/08/2005 10:12:01 PM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: Zack Nguyen

fascinating.


2 posted on 04/08/2005 10:23:22 PM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: Zack Nguyen

"John Taylor Gatto"

Wasn't he name a teacher of the year or something like that at some point?


3 posted on 04/08/2005 10:34:31 PM PDT by jocon307 (Irish grandmother rolls in grave, yet again!)
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To: Zack Nguyen
We don’t need a national curriculum or national testing either.

Well, that's good because we don't have a national curriculum. But the countries that ranked in the top 10 of the Third and Fourth International Math and Science Studies all had a national curriculum. We, however, came in third from last in math and last in physics. So, other than this one sentence, I found this author's work insightful.
4 posted on 04/08/2005 10:39:33 PM PDT by Serenissima Venezia (Bush talks about jobs Americans won't do - one we will do is (undocumented) U.S. Border Patrol Agent)
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To: Zack Nguyen

Looks interesting. Thanx!


5 posted on 04/08/2005 10:44:47 PM PDT by GoLightly
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To: Serenissima Venezia

It isn't just the big city school systems that are going into the SHITTER, small towns show it too. There are so many mandated courses that mean absolutely nothing, they don't teach the TREE R'S anymore. Thats why so many kids can't read past the 7th grade level as seniors. If the cash register doesn't tell them how much change to give they can't figure it out in their heads, What ever happened to the days when the teacher was the first one at school and the last one to leave, now they almost beat the kids out the door. My grandaughter is being home schooled and she is two years ahead of the kids her own age.


6 posted on 04/08/2005 10:50:27 PM PDT by snowman1
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To: Zack Nguyen
How much more evidence is necessary? Good schools don’t need more money or a longer year; they need real free-market choices, variety that speaks to every need and runs risks

And we need teachers who are willing to take risks too, to teach on a one year renewable contract and to negotiate their salary with the school with the full knowledge that some teachers are more valuable than others.

I believe there are some things that need to be taught sequentially and while individual learning is fine in theory, class learning can be successful as well. This means that some things are taugh in certain years, and kids need to accept a little regimentation. This is not to say that each teacher cannot explore teaching side subjects that motivate or are of special interest to the teacher. But this does not include politics, diversity, multiculturism, or so much off the subject that the class cannot succeed in annual standard tests.

7 posted on 04/08/2005 10:52:09 PM PDT by KC_for_Freedom (Sailing the highways of America, and loving it.)
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To: snowman1

Sorry should be the three R's, tried to go too fast.


8 posted on 04/08/2005 10:52:12 PM PDT by snowman1
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To: snowman1

When you cash a check at the bank you better count it right there in front of them, because they don't count it out to you like they used to and most of them sure can't get it right!!!!


9 posted on 04/08/2005 10:56:01 PM PDT by lolhelp
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To: Zack Nguyen

The-government-schools-are-a-disgrace-BUMP!


10 posted on 04/08/2005 11:06:56 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: KC_for_Freedom

I've lived in Germany for the past 12 years...and my son attends a German school. There are one or two areas where their education system greatly exceeds the American system...but overall...the American education sector is still better. I think there are alot of lazy American eductators out there...and certainly the amount they pay a teacher doesn't help to keep the better ones...but we are doing alot of good things.

My son...in the 7th grade in Germany...has barely gotten any history or civics ever. Science is a on-again, off-again subject that you simply laugh about. They waste 90 minutes per week on art and dance (mandatory)...which the vast majority of the kids really just sleep through. Math is the sole area where excellence is demanded...he is probably two years ahead of any American-schooled kid...but only because of the demands put upon students in the class. PE is limited to 120 minutes per week. And religion is actually a class (45 minutes)...which teaches relgious openess (yes, Muslims are good...so they are taught).


11 posted on 04/08/2005 11:10:30 PM PDT by pepsionice
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To: snowman1
What's so ridiculous is that they do teach the three R's in school still, reduce, reuse and recycle. My son will be home schooled starting next year also. Over my dead body will he step a foot into the public school system.
12 posted on 04/08/2005 11:41:11 PM PDT by Free2BeMe
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To: Zack Nguyen

Marker Bump

Regards

alfa6 ;>}


13 posted on 04/08/2005 11:46:31 PM PDT by alfa6 (A former University of Science, Music, and Culture NFO wannabe)
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To: Zack Nguyen

read later - Education


14 posted on 04/09/2005 12:57:10 AM PDT by LiteKeeper (The radical secularization of America is happening)
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To: Free2BeMe

I like your 3 R's, very good.

In our state (Mississippi) some districts employ by the mirror method, hold a mirror up to their mouth, have them breath on it and if it fogs over, hire them.


15 posted on 04/09/2005 1:29:31 AM PDT by gulfcoast6 (. or, ?)
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To: jocon307

Yes, he was. HE was New York State Teacher of the Year right before he quit teaching entirely. As he describes in the book he was more or less forced out.


16 posted on 04/09/2005 6:22:40 AM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: Serenissima Venezia

As I understand it we have national testing standards as a part of No Child Left Behind. Am I wrong on that?

IF we have national testing, it might be said that we have something akin to a national curriculum.


17 posted on 04/09/2005 6:27:12 AM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: gulfcoast6

Ive met a former Math teacher who was absolutely dumbfounded by the concept of percents. Im not kidding either..


18 posted on 04/09/2005 6:29:46 AM PDT by somniferum (All warfare is deception - Sun Tzu)
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To: pepsionice
And religion is actually a class (45 minutes)...which teaches relgious openess (yes, Muslims are good...so they are taught).

Ugh. That's just painful. Gatto's fundamental thesis (at least thus far in my reading) is that schooling and education are not the same thing. He believes that schooling - the rigorous, structured, identical environmental - often works against education.

Not saying I agree with him completely, but I do find it intriguing.

19 posted on 04/09/2005 6:45:11 AM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: Zack Nguyen

bump


20 posted on 04/09/2005 6:54:58 AM PDT by lilmsdangrus (hard work musta hurt somebody, somewhere....)
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To: pepsionice

Well, I never said the European model is good. Ususally on math tests they seriously humble the Americans, but the Americans then go to the press and say pretty much what you just said. In fact Americans are often the lowest educated kids but they believe their education system to be the best. (Of course this is not hard to figure when you remember that the teachers in America never miss a chance to tell the kids how well they are doing. You see we believe in not damaging the students self esteem.

The way schools work well is to have the students work hard. Now I have had some arguements with theorists who believe kids will work hard when they like what they are doing, and I guess video games shows this in male students anyway. But the process of learning must involve work and the student needs to accept that learning is their "job" until they are ready to take on job for real.

The difference in well learned math and not really learned math is about l2 pages of homework per night. If our students would accept this, and if the parents would support it even when the child is sleepy or whatever, we would catch the Europeans.

As for teaching that all religions are sweet, This has to be approached in a fair and balanced manner. What is it that makes the religion tolerant and loving? Where is this not the case? Of course most teachers in the US are schooled that religion must be kept out of school, so this class could not be taught.


21 posted on 04/09/2005 8:40:59 AM PDT by KC_for_Freedom (Sailing the highways of America, and loving it.)
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To: Serenissima Venezia
To have a national curriculum simply means that the schools teach to the test.

You can teach and test nothing but lies; and the students might be the number one school in the nation.

The problem with curriculum is that--when the state determines what to test they also determine what MUST BE TAUBHT. If you don't teach to that agenda, your students fail...if you fail, the state will come in and take over.

IT FORCES AN AGENDA TO BE TAUGHT.

California seems to have an agenda to do away with our history. Several years ago, the state gave mucho buckos to schools which cleared all of the older books out of their library...so they could buy NEW books...NEW history.

hmmnmmmmm....
22 posted on 04/09/2005 8:46:03 AM PDT by bannie (The government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend upon the support of Paul.)
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To: Zack Nguyen

wow. bump


23 posted on 04/09/2005 9:13:20 AM PDT by Tribune7
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To: Temple Owl

ping


24 posted on 04/09/2005 9:13:34 AM PDT by Tribune7
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To: Zack Nguyen
Statement: "....I quit.

Response: Good.

25 posted on 04/09/2005 9:20:41 AM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (Further, the statement assumed)
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To: bannie

I agree that just teaching to the test is wrong - and that's about all we do here. BUT, in the countries that did well in the TIMMS test, a national curriculum means that every child in the same grade learns the same thing, no matter what school they are in. It helps with children that have to move (our migrant children have the worst test scores) and ensures that all children are held to the same standard, no matter where they live. It works for for the countries whose students have come out on top in the Trends in International Math and Science Studies, which tests students from over 50 countries every 3 or 4 years. (Our MSM doesn't report it because the results are embarassing to the NEA.)


26 posted on 04/09/2005 9:35:22 AM PDT by Serenissima Venezia (Bush talks about jobs Americans won't do - one we will do is (undocumented) U.S. Border Patrol Agent)
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To: Zack Nguyen

Still, people here PRAISE the PUBLIC schools and their agenda!

Just watch ... .


27 posted on 04/09/2005 9:39:25 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Serenissima Venezia
I still see it as destructive. Whenever a state sets a curriculum, an agenda is set. Students who travel should not prevent those who are fortunate enough to stay put from getting the best education. As in NCLB, teaching all students to one denominator is unfair to the other. Any set "one-size-fits-all" curriculum is baaaaad. Local decisions help each district make more tailored changes.
28 posted on 04/09/2005 9:39:53 AM PDT by bannie (The government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend upon the support of Paul.)
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To: Serenissima Venezia

"Well, that's good because we don't have a national curriculum. But the countries that ranked in the top 10 of the Third and Fourth International Math and Science Studies all had a national curriculum. We, however, came in third from last in math and last in physics. So, other than this one sentence, I found this author's work insightful."

It is the CONTENTS of what they are "teaching" that has lowered U.S. public schools.


29 posted on 04/09/2005 9:40:46 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: nmh; bannie
bannie:
As in NCLB, teaching all students to one denominator is unfair to the other.

nmh:
It is the CONTENTS of what they are "teaching" that has lowered U.S. public schools.


I agree that our curriculum is wrong - be it set by the states or by the feds. The TIMMS study found that the top-ranking countries taught fewer new topics each year, but delved deep into each of them and didn't have to revisit them year after year, like we do. We introduce so many new topics, the kids are overwhelmed, don't learn them, and they need to be taught again and again.

One thing I see vastly different from when I went to school in the 60's vs. what I see in my son's school is that nobody is held back these days. Teachers are stuck with children at a variety of levels in one class and can't possibly teach them all well. Six weeks of summer school can't make up for an entire year goofing off. Is this what you meant, bannie? The TIMMS study found that in many top-ranking countries, students were held back if they didn't master the material, so when a student was in, say geometry, they had already mastered algebra and were prepared to move on. There was one national standard to meet (master the algebra curricula) before moving into geometry. All kids in that class were at the same level. BTW, I think expecting a student to stay in the same school district for their entire schooling - and too bad for those that don't - isn't a reasonable education plan!
30 posted on 04/09/2005 10:49:25 AM PDT by Serenissima Venezia (Bush talks about jobs Americans won't do - one we will do is (undocumented) U.S. Border Patrol Agent)
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To: Serenissima Venezia
"I agree that our curriculum is wrong - be it set by the states or by the feds. The TIMMS study found that the top-ranking countries taught fewer new topics each year, but delved deep into each of them and didn't have to revisit them year after year, like we do. We introduce so many new topics, the kids are overwhelmed, don't learn them, and they need to be taught again and again."

Not necessarily ... the topics they teach are the basic from which you need to master and yes they are taught in more depth. In contrast the public schools are LIGHT on depth. I don't agree that it is new topics that overwhelm them. I'm speaking of K-12.

"One thing I see vastly different from when I went to school in the 60's vs. what I see in my son's school is that nobody is held back these days. Teachers are stuck with children at a variety of levels in one class and can't possibly teach them all well. Six weeks of summer school can't make up for an entire year goofing off. Is this what you meant, bannie? The TIMMS study found that in many top-ranking countries, students were held back if they didn't master the material, so when a student was in, say geometry, they had already mastered algebra and were prepared to move on. There was one national standard to meet (master the algebra curricula) before moving into geometry. All kids in that class were at the same level. BTW, I think expecting a student to stay in the same school district for their entire schooling - and too bad for those that don't - isn't a reasonable education plan!"

Yes, today NO ONE is held back! They are pushed on and get more behind and frustrated because they haven't mastered the basics. If you don't have a firm foundation, forget building on that!

Absolutely six weeks will not make up for a year! I do pity teachers that are put in that position and I also blame them for not holding kids back. It's for their own good to be held back. I also had allot of my education in the 60's. They also had accelerated classes for quick learners. There was the "typical student pace", accelerated and the learning impaired. We also didn't have the political activist stuff like - "A Day of Silence" and "Gay Straight Alignment Days". The truth is the public school agenda is one of rewritten history to suit their secular, humanistic, relative goals. It's no longer learning. This is the stuff that has destroyed the public school system.

It's been awhile but ... you need to master geometry before algebra and calculus etc. excuse my bluntness but the kid is screwed up. Algebra comes in handy for Calculus. I was glad I was strong in Algebra.

There is also something else that is different - PARENTAL involvement. I don't mean parents yipping at everything being the teachers fault for their child not excelling but Pacific Rim countries it's part of their culture - LEARNING! Our first TWO years of math is a standard high school requirement in those countries.
31 posted on 04/09/2005 12:42:13 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Serenissima Venezia
I LOVE where my daughter is going to school! It's a private Christian School. They're strict and maintain high standards. They wear uniforms. The focus is learning and spiritual development. As I tell my daughter ... "you can be a brilliant thief" but through Biblical exposure this is not the path encouraged.

In her class one boy was asked to leave. His behavior was unacceptable. The teacher bent over backwards encouraging him to change but he refused. I'm sad that this happened but I'm tired of hearing about him disrupting the class and being punished. If he is out of control at young age, I hate to see what he grows up to be. It's not the role of the teacher to play parent.

She doesn't need a special course in "Character Building". She has the best example of all in her Bible class. Outside of a Bible class it is the traditional curriculum that I had years ago. Their S.A.T. scores are higher than the state and the kids are wholesome, polite and nice. You can see that they are happy and content

We live in a "Blue Ribbon" school district but unless we can't afford this school, she will NOT be attending it. We really LOVE her school and the teachers are amazing. They actually care about the kids and FAMILY is what they stress; not the "village". It has always taken a FAMILY to raise a child. They also WANT parental involvement in THEIR decisions. As I said, I just hope we can afford it K-12.
32 posted on 04/09/2005 12:54:19 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Serenissima Venezia

Clarification:

Our first TWO years of math in COLLEGE is a standard high school requirement in those countries.


33 posted on 04/09/2005 12:59:46 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: nmh

I agree that a persona's culture has a lot to do with whether the child will succeed. The libs like to call it racist, but looking at a schools demographic breakdown vs. SAT scores is very telling. Some cultures stress education, some don't. Unfortunately, I think we are becoming one that doesn't. My son has many friends whose parents don't even know what the kids are doing when they are OUT of school, much less IN school. It's sad for the children.

By the kids being confused because of new topics, I meant too many are introduced - and reintroduced - each year. Since they're not taught in depth, they are forgotten and have to be retaught in subsequent years. For instance, my son's math books have taught percentages for many year in a row, but never all at once, in depth. It's repeated year after year, with a little bit more depth added each year. What a waste of time! This was both in public and private school. Homeschools will have the same curriculum, unless someone gets them from Japan, etc.!

Since you also went to school in the 60-70's time frame and know about math, I have a question. When did Algebra break into 2 years worth of classes? At time I went to school (and my husband any numerous friends as well), Algebra was one year. The sequence was algebra, geometry, trig, and calculus. It was the same in college for those that didn't learn them in HS. Now that my son is in middle school, algebra has been split into 2 classes, 1 before and another after geometry. The content is exactly the same as it was 30+ decades ago, just spread out - I assume because kids show up unprepared for it. I'd like to know if in Japan and S. Korea, they still have Algebra taking one year. Probably.


34 posted on 04/09/2005 1:53:10 PM PDT by Serenissima Venezia (Bush talks about jobs Americans won't do - one we will do is (undocumented) U.S. Border Patrol Agent)
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To: Serenissima Venezia
"Since you also went to school in the 60-70's time frame and know about math, I have a question. When did Algebra break into 2 years worth of classes? At time I went to school (and my husband any numerous friends as well), Algebra was one year. The sequence was algebra, geometry, trig, and calculus. It was the same in college for those that didn't learn them in HS. Now that my son is in middle school, algebra has been split into 2 classes, 1 before and another after geometry. The content is exactly the same as it was 30+ decades ago, just spread out - I assume because kids show up unprepared for it. I'd like to know if in Japan and S. Korea, they still have Algebra taking one year. Probably."

It's been too long ago for me to remember.

"When did Algebra break into 2 years worth of classes? At time I went to school (and my husband any numerous friends as well), Algebra was one year. The sequence was algebra, geometry, trig, and calculus."

I had algebra in one year also. I may have the sequence wrong. In college, I did sign up for a review Algebra course then dived into Calculus. In Comp. Sci., I hat to complete Calc 1, Calc 2 and Calc 3. While it didn't help me with Assembler it did organize my thinking and problem analysis skills.

I don't know off hand about other countries.

I do know that there are differences in Homeschooling materials and Private school approaches. This constant review approach is not used where she goes but it is gaining popularity elsewhere.

35 posted on 04/09/2005 2:03:27 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: nmh
This constant review approach is not used where she goes ...

That is great. I was thinking when I did my student teaching and saw the math book had, for example, ratios, sprinkled throughout the book - that as a teacher I would put all those sections back to back and teach them all at once. In depth and cover the subject completely so the kids knew it. And then move to to another topic. I know I'd get in trouble with the administation, but it makes no sense to introduce something new, go to something else entirely, then come back to the new thing that's been forgotten! And keep repeating this throughout the year. Either your teachers have it on the ball or they've bought better books. Doesn't matter which - it works!
36 posted on 04/09/2005 2:26:01 PM PDT by Serenissima Venezia (Bush talks about jobs Americans won't do - one we will do is (undocumented) U.S. Border Patrol Agent)
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To: Serenissima Venezia
The teachers are good there. They typically have an average of 21 years teaching. Her kindergarten teacher has 31 years so there is still the "old school" of ideas at work. That's why there is a waiting list to get in. For the sake of being repetitive, I just hope we can afford it through 12th grade.

In our local school district they LOVE the repetitive approach. I see it as a time waster and short changing kids who've already learned it.
37 posted on 04/09/2005 4:56:23 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Serenissima Venezia

"... but it makes no sense to introduce something new, go to something else entirely, then come back to the new thing that's been forgotten! And keep repeating this throughout the year."

I'm in your camp! You make sense.


38 posted on 04/09/2005 4:57:37 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Zack Nguyen; latina4dubya

Bump and ping. We have this book - it's excellent.


39 posted on 04/09/2005 5:00:05 PM PDT by scripter (Tens of thousands have left the homosexual lifestyle)
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To: nmh
I also went to school in the '60's. We had six different levels in each grade. The smartest (gasp! Yes, I said, "the smartest!!!) were in "The First Group;" and the least smart (again, GASP!) were in "The Sixth Group."

It allowed for accelerated learning or remedial learning. It WORKED!!!

NOW, we MAINSTREAM those whom we used to call "retarded" (GASP!).

No Child Left Behind MEANS We All Stay Back.

40 posted on 04/09/2005 5:40:03 PM PDT by bannie (The government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend upon the support of Paul.)
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS
Response: Good.

actually, it's not good... not good for children getting a government school education... he was the kind of teacher that any parent would, should want for their children...

41 posted on 04/09/2005 7:17:11 PM PDT by latina4dubya
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To: nmh
"Since you also went to school in the 60-70's time frame and know about math, I have a question. When did Algebra break into 2 years worth of classes?

i went to high school from 79-83... it was algebra, geometry, algebra 2, trig., calculus... (i might have alg. 2 and trig. mixed up... maybe trig. came before alg. 2)...

42 posted on 04/09/2005 7:20:58 PM PDT by latina4dubya
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To: latina4dubya

"i went to high school from 79-83... it was algebra, geometry, algebra 2, trig., calculus... (i might have alg. 2 and trig. mixed up... maybe trig. came before alg. 2)..."

I was referring to college for the alegebra review course.

I don't rmemeber much about high school or the order of the math courses. I graduated from high school in 1974 then went on to college for two degrees. It all seems sooo long ago.


43 posted on 04/10/2005 9:13:19 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Serenissima Venezia
Teachers are stuck with children at a variety of levels in one class and can't possibly teach them all well.

They can't get rid of discipline problems either. A principal of a middle school who is a good friend of mine has described the situation to me. He can send the serious troublemakers off to a separate school for a period of time, but he can't get rid of anybody forever.

44 posted on 04/10/2005 10:54:29 AM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: latina4dubya

Thanks for the input. I graduated in '79, so it must've been very shortly after that that the algebra split occured. Funny how things are changed in the public schools and it's never announced or explained. I think the NEA sneaks in changes, hoping nobody will notice. Kinda like when they 'recentered' the SAT scores in 1996!


45 posted on 04/11/2005 7:55:31 AM PDT by Serenissima Venezia (Bush talks about jobs Americans won't do - one we will do is (undocumented) U.S. Border Patrol Agent)
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To: Serenissima Venezia

That's true. I don't know why they can't expell these troublemakers permanently. Guess the ACLU would get involved, because of course the bad kids have more rights to be bad than the good kids have right to learn.


46 posted on 04/11/2005 7:56:43 AM PDT by Serenissima Venezia (Bush talks about jobs Americans won't do - one we will do is (undocumented) U.S. Border Patrol Agent)
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To: Serenissima Venezia; scripter
Kinda like when they 'recentered' the SAT scores in 1996!

and just this year they removed the analogy section from the SAT... kids today do not know how to think analogically... instead of being able to apply one situation to another, many people today need everything spelled out for them... that is why we now have so many rules and regulations... people need specific directions for every single situation...

btw--i'm using the Bible to teach my kids to think analogically... it's perfect...

47 posted on 04/11/2005 8:27:13 AM PDT by latina4dubya
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To: latina4dubya
btw--i'm using the Bible to teach my kids to think analogically... it's perfect...

Great idea!
48 posted on 04/11/2005 8:30:18 AM PDT by Serenissima Venezia (Bush talks about jobs Americans won't do - one we will do is (undocumented) U.S. Border Patrol Agent)
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To: Cogadh na Siths Girl

Interesting.


49 posted on 04/11/2005 8:35:58 AM PDT by Cogadh na Sith (Steel Bonnets Over the Border)
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To: Zack Nguyen

The purpose of public schools is the conditioning of children to accept their place in the Future, NOT the education of those children.

True education would empower children intellectually and morally to overthrow this wrongful Authority, therefore one will never find such a thing in the public schools.

The public schools are at war with American ideals and American children. Believe it.


50 posted on 04/11/2005 8:44:08 AM PDT by headsonpikes (Spirit of '76 bttt!)
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