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Corporate America Is Just 7 States Short of a Constitutional Convention ^ | 3/14/16 | Simon Davis-Cohen

Posted on 03/14/2016 3:10:54 PM PDT by cotton1706

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To: Jacquerie
flamberge is in need of an education.

Art, Publius.

Thank you. That was educational.

I stand by my original remarks, however.

An Article V Convention is inherently uncontrollable by it's very nature. There is no real limit to what can be proposed at such a gathering. And backers are far too confident that most of the delegates would be Conservative, limited-Government types.

Most likely we would see intractable splits between "Moderates" and "extreme Conservatives" that would prevent a majority backing for anything. Meanwhile the Leftists would form a united coalition, force rules changes, and pass a number of measures with a simple plurality.

All of this to the frenzied exhortations of the mass media and various Government bureaucracies, not to mention some carefully orchestrated riots aimed at the delegates.

You can also count on a number of "Conservative" delegates flipping to the leftist side at a critical juncture. A few well-timed "accidental deaths" can insure it.

The Leftists are not going to limit themselves in any manner when they are faced with an existential threat to their position and power.

Of course the States may not ratify the product of the convention. That is probably the best outcome that we could hope for.

21 posted on 03/14/2016 6:10:23 PM PDT by flamberge
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To: flamberge
I don't have a problem with the states not ratifying the product of a convention. For one thing, a balanced budget amendment is a bad idea as long as we still control the world's reserve currency. If that ends, however, the landscape changes.

What I want to see is a convention conducted in an orderly manner that produces something constructive without all the rioting, kidnapping of delegates' families by the federal entity, martial law, and troops pointing their guns at the delegates on the convention floor to fulfill the Left's demands -- which is what too many people fear. I want a convention to set a precedent on how it is to be conducted and the delegates' positions filled. Once we have that, a future convention can handle Mark Levin's issues.

As far as what can be proposed, the delegates will be there to work on the topic for which the convention was called. Should a delegate introduce a proposal outside the scope of the convention's call, it is the duty of the presiding officer to gavel it down. Should the delegate appeal the chair's decision to the floor, it is the duty of the assembled delegates to vote down discussion of any proposal that goes outside the scope of the convention's call.

Would the Left attempt some kind of terroristic activity to prevent the convention from doing its assigned business or to even break it up? Possibly. But that's no reason to avoid a Convention of the States if enough states apply for one. The Framers gave us this tool whereby the states may bypass Congress to propose amendments on their own without congressional interference. George Mason put it there for a reason.

22 posted on 03/14/2016 6:22:50 PM PDT by Publius ("Who is John Galt?" by Billthedrill and Publius now available at Amazon.)
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To: flamberge; patlin; MeganC; Hostage; Jacquerie; Publius; Repeal The 17th; Arthur McGowan; GraceG; ...
As MeganC said, the Article V concept is a Convention of States only, not a Constitutional Convention. Please see the video by the State of Alabama below. A great intro! Thank you for your interest.

For those who think the Article V process is too risky, I ask, "What other options do you see?"

To summarize from a previous post by GraceG:

1. Elect More Republicans - Failed due to RINO/Uni-party confluence.

2. Article V Convention of States to propose Amendments - Needed to try to take power from the federal government back to the states and reel in the federal leviathan.

3. State Nullification - Last ditch effort to try to take power back from the federal monster, though by this point it may be too late.

4. State Secession - Could either end up peaceably like the breakup of the Czechoslovakia in 1993 or a brutal:

5. Civil War II like the first one.... The longer we wait on #2, the more likely #3, then #4 and finally #5. .

So, do we do nothing and just wait for # 5?

Quick review: We need 34 states to pass an application, then Congress shall, by law, call a Convention of States as soon as it receives applications from 2/3 of the State Legislatures. That's 34 states. So far both legislative chambers of 5 States, {Alabama, Alaska, Florida, Georgia and Tennessee}, have completely passed their resolutions and 36 state legislative chambers or bodies have filed or passed resolutions.) Amendments are proposed and voted on at the convention. Each Amendment must be ratified by 3/4 of the states in order to become part of the US Constitution. That's 38 states.

"There are far more political and legal constraints on a runaway convention than on a runaway Congress." - Robert Natelson

Most FReepers are aware of these links, but I post anyway for review and for people new to Article V. It is our responsibility to make Article V the most understood aspect of the US Constitution.

****Please see this summary video from Alabama first: Convention of States - Alabama Way to go Alabama! A great introduction!

***Another good introduction video Convention of States: The Plan to Restore America

***For the Young People Overview of the COS Project at Washington Freedom Summit Laura Fennig, a COS Grassroots Coordinator, describes the COS Project plan and how you can get involved!

Rep. Bill Taylor introduces a Convention of States

Convention of States Live! with Mike Farris

The Case for an Article V Convention. Great explanation of an Article V convention to the Massachusetts State Legislature.

**** Convention of States Lots of information here.

Learn about the Convention of States The Problem, the Solution and the Strategy

Call a Convention A call for a Convention of States

Missouri state senator delivers amazing testimony (video) Reasoned speech on why we need an Article V Convention.

Article V Project to Restore Liberty Another good source.

Convention of States model Resolution

A Summary of Mark Levin's Proposed Amendments by Jacquerie

Chapter 1 of Mark Levin's Book, The Liberty Amendments

Mark Levin, Constitution Article V, and the Liberty Amendments

Mark Levin: "The Liberty Amendments" - Complete Sean Hannity Special + other Links

List of Mark Levin You Tube Videos

Citizens for Self-Governance: Convention of States Project Youtube hub - Lots of educational videos here

Mark Levin Article V, Liberty Amendments youtube video hub

Three hour video of C-Span interview with Mark Levin

*** Mark Levin's ALEC Speech, Dec 4, 2014

Gaining Steam? Nearly 100 Lawmakers Descend on Mount Vernon to Talk Convention of States The beginning.

Curing Federal Dysfunction by Constitutional Amendment: A Primer Professor Rob Natelson

Our American Constitution, Article V Rob Natelson's Article V articles

We can fight the uniparty! States, the Natural Second Party by Jacquerie

Convention to Propose Amendments to the United States Constitution

The Other Way to Amend the Constitution: The Article V Constitutional Convention Amendment Process

Amendment Booklet.pdf

Friends of Article V Convention Links

The Indiana Statute that will Govern their Delegates

Congress' Present Duty to Call a Convention:

Congress' Present Duty to Call a Convention. (Part I)

Congress' Present Duty to Call a convention. (Part II)

Congress' Present Duty to Call a Convention. (Part III)

Congress' Present Duty to Call a Convention. (Part IV)

Congress' Present Duty to Call a Convention. (Part V)

Congress' Failure to Call an Amendments Convention. (Part VI)

Ulysses at the Mast: Democracy, Federalism, and the Sirens' Song of the Seventeenth Amendment by Jay Bybee. Repeal the 17th! Shorter Abstract here: Ulysses at the Mast, one page Abstract

****For those of you that still have doubts about the Article V process, please review: Responses To Convention Of States Opposition My initial concerns were resolved after reading these articles. My attitude now is Go For It!

Sarah Palin: Debunking the myths of a Convention of States

Five Myths About Article Five by Rita Dunaway

An Open Letter to the Anti-Convention of States Group by Rita Dunaway

The Article Five Solution - The Founders Would Want Us To Use It Other Rita Dunaway Article V articles Here

A Single-Subject Convention Addresses the "runaway convention" fear.

John Birch Society Denies Its History and Betrays Its Mission The original Birchers were for an Article V Convention.

Update: Convention of States by the numbers The current State count

Convention of States Progress Update From Conservative Review

Convention of States Gaining Momentum

Article V Latest News

***Indiana Statute - Duties of Article V Convention Delegates A good example for other states and one of the safeguards.

****Proposing Constitutional Amendments by a Convention of States - An Article V Handbook for State Legislators An important resource.

****State Initiation of Constitutional Amendments: A Guide for Lawyers and Legislative Drafters The Bible on Convention of States

**** State Legislators Article V Caucus State Legislators, Join up at this site!

Most State Legislatures are in session now. Send this list of links to your State Representatives and Senators here: Contact your State Legislators.

Sample Letter to state Representatives regarding the Convention of States Project and also, Talking Points.

Excellent Article V Letter to a State Assemblyman by Jacquerie

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke.

Let's all work together to get this going!

23 posted on 03/14/2016 8:03:23 PM PDT by Art in Idaho (Conservatism is the only Hope for Western Civilization.)
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Comment #24 Removed by Moderator

To: patlin

Agreed, and article V convention would not be limited to 1 topic, it would open the entire thing up and it would be a disaster.

25 posted on 03/14/2016 8:58:06 PM PDT by HamiltonJay
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To: Art in Idaho
Art, in addition, let me state for the record here, the critical part of Article V...

“Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article;”

Now one the surface, this may seem to give Congress or the states the authority to change the method of direct taxation without regards to census or apportionment, however, that is not what this is saying.

The first Clause in Section 9 is a reference to slavery and the duty tax imposed on the importation of slaves. Up until 1808, when slavery was to cease to exist, slaves were not counted as a free persons, therefore, under Clause four, any direct tax passed by Congress, then sent to the states, was apportioned according to the 3/5ths apportionment rule set forth in A1,S2,C3. Free persons counted as a whole person and slaves were counted as 3/5ths of a person for purposes of taxation.

Since slavery was to be abolished, for purposes of direct taxation, those states that did not cease the practice of slavery, the US Congress was given authority to count the slaves in those states, after 1808, as free persons who were no longer subject to the 3/5ths clauses, thereby increasing the amount of tax owed by those states when Congress passed budgets and then sent the bill for those budgets to the states according to their populations. The war between the states was not just for the freedom of the slaves, the slaves states were fighting to rid themselves of having to count their slaves as free persons for the purposes of taxation.

26 posted on 03/14/2016 9:39:58 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledgee chosen to participate inthat is - 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: HamiltonJay
The problem is not the Constitution or certain Amendments that are flawed, it is the education of the people that is flawed, especially that of those who spent tens of thousands of dollars for the alphabet degrees that only taught them myths.

“The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie— deliberate, contrived and dishonest— but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” John F. Kennedy

If there is one Amendment that needs addressing, it is the 17th. The Senate is to be the body that represents the states, not the population of the states as a whole. It needs to wholly be repealed and A1,S3,C1 restored to its original language.

And I am in favor of term limits. This is a must needed Amendment to rid ourselves of elected political welfare class we have today. They are so removed form reality, they haven't a clue who they represent and this election living proof of that.

27 posted on 03/14/2016 9:56:01 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledgee chosen to participate inthat is - 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: cotton1706

It doesn’t prevent them from stimulating the economy at all. Just build up a rainy day fund like any normal human being is supposed to, and stimulate away with it when you need to.

28 posted on 03/14/2016 10:02:13 PM PDT by JediJones (TRUMP 6/18/2012 on Fox News: "We have to show some compassion. We just can't throw everybody out.")
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To: patlin; HamiltonJay
Thank your for your informative post. I was not aware of the various aspects of the 16th Amendment. I always thought the income tax was a direct tax.

One point that stood out from your sentence, "The 16th Amendment is an A1, S8 ‘income excise tax’ on privileged activity, it is not a tax on the earnings," was the concept of privileged activity. From what I can gather that's any work activity that is for private property wages? I had never seen the 'privileged activity' phrase re taxation before. The other thought that came to mind, without my further research, was who determines what a 'privileged activity' is?

As you said, the flat tax on its surface sounds good but as Levin points out, there will be some graduated tax structures built in. All very complicated to the layman, but attractive considering where the IRS stands today. It certainly will require some well thought out discussion and proposals at a Convention of States.

I certainly agree we need to get our Federal spending in check and fix our broken educational system. I think those are 'job ones' with a new administration.

The Article V Convention of States process will have logistical and other problems just setting up the first meeting. If the States send their best and brightest, with strict limitations such as those outlined in the Indiana statute, I think it is a process we need to pursue to get the Federal leviathan in check. As Tom Coburn says, they aren't going to do it. It's up to us.

29 posted on 03/14/2016 10:09:44 PM PDT by Art in Idaho (Conservatism is the only Hope for Western Civilization.)
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To: patlin; holdonnow; Art in Idaho; null and void; Velveeta; Rushmore Rocks; Myrddin; sweetiepiezer; ..


Please check out # 24.


30 posted on 03/14/2016 10:36:47 PM PDT by LucyT
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To: flamberge
Why assume the states will work toward their own destruction? Most legislatures are part-time gigs. Unlike congress, most legislators work in the private sector and many are business owners. They know the horrid condition of our nation as well, if not better, than the average freeper.

To your point, the states will not send representatives. They will send delegates with detailed instructions backed up by felony penalties for violation.

Here, for example, is the Indiana statute that will govern commissions.

31 posted on 03/15/2016 12:51:22 AM PDT by Jacquerie (Article V - A Call to Convention, available at Amazon.)
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To: patlin
Regarding Levin's Liberty Amendments in post #5 you asserted, The majority will ultimately have the opposite affect of what they propose.

How so?

32 posted on 03/15/2016 1:53:33 AM PDT by Jacquerie (Article V - A Call to Convention, available at Amazon.)
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To: patlin; LucyT; maggief; hoosiermama; null and void; Whenifhow

Patlin said:

“...The 16th Amendment is an A1, S8 ‘income excise tax’ on privileged activity, it is not a tax on the earnings. The earnings is the measure by which the activity is taxed. The more one participates in privileged activity, the more tax one will owe because the more the activity, the more earnings are produced from that activity. ...”

“...We do not need to repeal the 16th Amendment. From 1862-1942 it worked well and it kept the Government spending in check. Up until 1942 less than 8% of the working class population paid income tax. Not because they fid not make enough to have to pay, but because their jobs were not associated with privileged activity that is taxable under A1, S8 of the Constitution. So what changed? ...”

This is part of Hendrickson’s stance.

Following this will result in some expensive lessons.


This is what happened to Hendrickson; from the article:

“...Hendrickson got hauled into court after he filed tax returns falsely showing that he earned zero “wages”, even though his employer paid him what any normal person would call “wages” and withheld federal income tax from them. Hendrickson sought a refund of the tax withheld.

As is often the case, the IRS started by trusting the returns. It refunded or credited to Hendrickson the amounts he claimed. (The IRS has millions of returns to process and can’t catch everything right away.) Later, the IRS caught up with Hendrickson, and he was the subject of multiple court cases.

In a civil case against Hendrickson, United States v. Hendrickson, No. 06-11753 (E.D. Mich. 2007), the court determined that Hendrickson and his wife were indebted to the United States for the erroneous refunds or credits they had received. The court said (bolding added):

Defendants’ contention that withholding applies only to government workers is frivolous and false. See, e.g., Sullivan v. United States, 788 F.2d 813, 815 (1st Cir. 1986); United States v. Latham, 754 F.2d 747, 750 (7th Cir. 1985); (contention that “under 26 U.S.C. § 3401(c) the category of ‘employee’ does not include privately employed wage earners is a preposterous reading of the statute.”).

On appeal, the court’s judgment was affirmed and the Hendricksons were fined a further $4,000 for the “patent baselessness” of their arguments.

Hendrickson’s troubles weren’t over. The government prosecuted Hendrickson criminally. In that case, Hendrickson continued to rely on his absurd theories. He filed a copiously briefed motion for acquittal, in which he pressed his bizarre understanding of the word “includes” and argued that the case against him had to be dismissed under the law. Denying the motion, the court observed that:

The courts have uniformly held that the ordinary remuneration received by privately employed workers qualifies as taxable “wages” under the Internal Revenue Code.

Hendrickson was convicted and sentenced to nearly three years in federal prison and ordered to pay over $40,000 in fines and restitution. So the courts have squarely determined Hendrickson’s theories to be wrong — indeed, not just wrong, but “frivolous,” “false,” and “preposterous.” (Update: On February 8, 2012, Hendrickson’s conviction was affirmed but the court of appeals determined that there had been an error in his sentence. On May 15, 2012, his prison sentence was reduced from 33 months to 27 months.)

If anybody could make the Cracking the Code theories work in court, it would be the guy who wrote the book — Hendrickson himself. But in fact, he lost his own cases. His theories are wrong and they do not work.

Hendrickson’s followers haven’t had any luck in court either. An employee of Dell Products who earned about $150,000 a year filed amended tax returns based on Cracking the Code, claimed that he earned zero wages, and sought a refund of all amounts withheld from his pay. When his case got to court, not only did he lose, but he was fined an additional $20,000 for pursuing frivolous arguments. Montero v. Commmisioner, 354 Fed. Appx. 173 (5th Cir. 2009).


33 posted on 03/15/2016 6:08:39 AM PDT by WildHighlander57 ((WildHighlander57, returning after lurking since 2000)
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To: cotton1706

“A balanced budget amendment would prevent the federal government from following the Keynesian strategy of stimulating the economy “

Which would be a very good thing.


34 posted on 03/15/2016 6:13:02 AM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

Comment #36 Removed by Moderator

To: Jacquerie
Why assume the states will work toward their own destruction?

Because they already have.

I know some of my State legislators and have met my Federal Congressman. I have followed other local politicians by various open-source methods.

I am not confident that they would choose delegates that would propose anything I would want to see in the Constitution.

Of course I have a sample size of one state. YMMV in your own state.

37 posted on 03/15/2016 4:04:41 PM PDT by flamberge
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To: flamberge

You apparently couldn’t comprehend my post.

Your loss.

38 posted on 03/15/2016 5:52:30 PM PDT by Jacquerie (Article V - A Call to Convention, available at Amazon.)
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